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!!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!!   Dan Patterson Dec 12, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   William Huber Dec 12, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Dan Patterson Dec 12, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Karen zera Dec 12, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Gord H Dec 12, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   David Kimball Dec 12, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Gord H Dec 12, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Chad Cottle Dec 12, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Jeff Jenness Dec 16, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Adrienne Miller Miller Jan 07, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Adrienne Miller Miller Jan 07, 2004
Tables from Excel, etc.   William Huber Jan 07, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Derek McNamara Dec 12, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Dan Patterson Dec 12, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Mike Herrmann Dec 12, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Tift Tax GIS Dec 12, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   David Fox Dec 16, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Tom M Dec 16, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Daniel Sandhaus Dec 17, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   John Wonch Dec 17, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   John Wonch Dec 17, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Tift Tax GIS Dec 18, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Alexandra Hajok Dec 18, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Tim Hoeflich Dec 19, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   steve whitehead Dec 22, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Dan Patterson Dec 27, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Dan Patterson Dec 27, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Domenico Ciavarella Dec 28, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Lester Johnson Dec 30, 2003
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   William Huber Dec 31, 2003
Re: Where to find the survey   William Huber Dec 31, 2003
Re: Where to find the survey   Marco Boeringa Jan 10, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Shaun Phillips Jan 12, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Serge V.P. Jan 15, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Duncan Hornby Jan 19, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Jon Fisher Jan 20, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Dan Patterson Jan 20, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Tift Tax GIS Jan 22, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Craig Williams Jan 29, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Tift Tax GIS Jan 30, 2004
Re: Experience with GRASS etc.   William Huber Jan 20, 2004
ArcGIS 8.x   William Huber Jan 21, 2004
Re: ArcGIS 8.x   Dan Patterson Jan 21, 2004
Re: ArcGIS 8.x   Michiel Boelhouwer Jan 28, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Jim Mossman Jan 22, 2004
Connection with Visaul Basic 6   AHMED SASH Jan 22, 2004
Re: Connection with Visaul Basic 6   David Kimball Jan 23, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   William Beatty Jan 29, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Dan Patterson Jan 29, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Tift Tax GIS Feb 03, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Tift Tax GIS Feb 03, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Guyn2 GIS Feb 05, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Dan Patterson Feb 05, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Guyn2 GIS Feb 05, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Guyn2 GIS Feb 05, 2004
Re: Blah, blah, ... Baa   William Huber Feb 05, 2004
Re: Blah, blah, ... Baa   Tift Tax GIS Feb 06, 2004
Re: Blah, blah, ... Baa   Matt Frost Feb 06, 2004
Re: Blah, blah, ... Baa   Charles Fried Feb 18, 2004
Re: Blah, blah, ... Baa   Tom Price Mar 09, 2004
Re: Blah, blah, ... Baa   David Lowery Feb 22, 2006
Re: Blah, blah, ... Baa   David Lowery Feb 22, 2006
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Derek McNamara Feb 06, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Jim Mossman Feb 07, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Alexandra Hajok Feb 09, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Matt Frost Feb 10, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Peter Black Feb 10, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Paul Benson Feb 11, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Dan Patterson Feb 11, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   William Mattingly Feb 12, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Dan Patterson Feb 12, 2004
Re: Comparing AV 3.x to AV 8.x   William Huber Feb 12, 2004
Re: Comparing AV 3.x to AV 8.x   William Mattingly Feb 13, 2004
Re: Comparing AV 3.x to AV 8.x   Tift Tax GIS Feb 13, 2004
Re: Comparing AV 3.x to AV 8.x   André Weber Mar 31, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Dawn Baldridge Apr 22, 2004
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Neil Webber Nov 08, 2005
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Dan Patterson Nov 08, 2005
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Charles Fried Nov 08, 2005
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Dan Patterson Nov 08, 2005
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Tift Tax GIS Nov 08, 2005
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Paul Benson Nov 09, 2005
Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!...   Robert Rumney Nov 12, 2005
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Subject !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Dan Patterson 
Date Dec 12, 2003 
Message ESRI is doing a survey on the future of arcview (both versions). Make your voice heard by filling out the survey:

http://www.esri.com/index.html

If you see a future for AV3.x, then users of this forum must be heard.

----------EDIT

Please post any comments you wish to share with the forum in this thread

 
  Geomatics, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author William Huber 
Date Dec 12, 2003 
Message Thanks for the heads up, Dan.

Here is what I wrote. To all: I'm interested in hearing any disagreements, differences of opinion, or nuances. Share yours!

"ArcView 8.x has a beautiful design, but a bloated inefficient buggy implementation. I cannot in good conscience, as a consultant, commit client projects to such a platform.

"As far as the Avenue scripts go: over the last eight years or so, I have written about a thousand scripts, extensions, and systems of scripts, and collected hundreds more. Rewriting many of these in VBA actually involves _much_ more work than writing the original ones, so reproducing them in ArcGIS 8.x is just not feasible. With these scripts I can still do many things in ArcView 3.x of which ArcGIS 8 is not capable.

"ArcView 8.x is a completely different product and has greatly diverged from the original course set by ArcView 2-3. For many people that has been very unsatisfactory. If you do not want to end up as one of many high-end, low-volume GIS vendors, you should renew your vision of producing a powerful, flexible, inexpensive, easily accessible GIS. Your briskest competition may soon be the MapPoints and Manifolds of the universe rather than the MapInfos and Intergraphs. You should be a player in that marketplace, with ArcView 3- and Manifold-like capabilities and price points, rather than abandoning it altogether." 
  --Bill Huber
Quantitative Decisions (http://www.quantdec.com )
More GIS Q&A at http://gis.stackexchange.com/q/3083/664 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Dan Patterson 
Date Dec 12, 2003 
Message Thanks Bill

...and from a University perspective, I am having a serious look at Manifold (amongst others) since the University site-wide licence is at $250 US (yes folks...unlimited install etc etc) and it appears to offer great teaching/research tools. IDRISI and others offer a lot of capability and there are programming interfaces better suited to GIS than VB or VBA.

So ESRI needs to hear from you people out there in the trenches...Newbies in particular...and those that have had to thrash through 8.x just to get a map on screen/paper...Most users aren't enterprise users in my experience.

So Please Folks...provide some commentary in this thread and fill out their survey 
  Geomatics, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Karen zera 
Date Dec 12, 2003 
Message Yes, yes! As an experienced GIS Manager for a small local government, I am caught between my goal to provide quality GIS services while not getting completely bowled over by the ever increasing software costs and technical skills required just to keep afloat. I am facing program/software development and purchasing decisions in the very near horizon and I am failing to see what solutions ESRI has for my organization. And what kind of marketing strategy involves condescending marketing reps mocking ArcView3 users at a local user meetings. I am so glad to hear that there are others out there who have similar thoughts and I hope that others will contribute their comments. Thanks for the reality check. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Gord H 
Date Dec 12, 2003 
Message My (submitted) reasons for not transitioning to 8.x:
Budgetary reasons
Third party software that does not operate with 8.x
Avenue scripts that have not been translated to VB/VBA
Corporate adoption issues related to retraining
Other: ArcView 3.x is a common platform with other users in my field.

I didn't submit this, as I feel it falls under "Budgetary reasons", "Coporate adoption issues", and "Avenue scripts"...
ArcView 3.x does almost everything I need it to do as is, so I can't justify the time and money needed to upgrade. More of a time constraint than money.

Under the "additional suggestions", I submitted:
Requested improvements for ArcView 3.x:
Additional Avenue classes and requests for describing links/joins between tables. Vtab or Table requests could be something like .GetJoins and .GetLinks. The join and link classes would have requests like Join.GetLocalField, Join.GetLocalVtab, Join.GetRemoteField, Join.GetRemoteVTab, etc.

Allow 1 window to be maximized at a time, instead of maximizing all windows.

When customizing a menu item, button, or tool, allow the ability to enter a null string in the Help, Helptopic, Tag, and Update categories when using the dialog box. For example, if I enter an Update script into the Customize menu, then wish to remove the update script later, the dialog will only allow me to replace the update script with another. I have to write a script to assign an item's update script to nil.

An Avenue method to describe which theme an FTab belongs to (FTab.GetTheme??). For scripts that work on a table document, I use:
theTable = av.GetActiveDoc
theVTab = theTable.GetVTab
if (theVTab.Is(FTab)) then
go through all of the views to find a theme with the same SrcName before I know which view(s) edits to the table will affect, and which view a change to the selection will affect.

More specific error messages than "Segmentation Violation", "Assertion Error", etc. Knowing which theme/operation caused these errors would be a good start.

Improve SQL connections - I had to write a script to close all SQL connections before saving a project, and restore them after the project is re-opened if more than one SQL connection is open at a time.

Build in ability to add layers from ArcIMS. I would buy a new version of the software if it had this ability. I will write my own work-around if it isn't provided by ESRI, but it will cost me more in wages than a new version of 3.x would, and it will be slow. A connector that could take advantage of an ArcIMS feature service would be great.

 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author David Kimball 
Date Dec 12, 2003 
Message Gord--in most cases in the Customize dialog, you can set lines to a null string by clicking once on the line to highlight it and then pressing the delete or backspace key.
 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Gord H 
Date Dec 12, 2003 
Message Thanks David! I've been doing it the long way for years! Ask and ye shall recieve.
Gord 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Chad Cottle 
Date Dec 12, 2003 
Message I agree with Bill on all accounts. We have invested far too much time in terms of training and Avenue development to simply switch over completely simply because ESRI has pushed that envelope our way. Some of the features of 8.x are simply amazing, however it IS buggy and it IS bloated and VBA is one of the most verbose languages in use. The bottom line is that we are dabbling with it but we cannot in good faith completely jump on board as this would send our GIS TCO to an unacceptable level.

Chad Cottle, MCSD, MCDBA
GIS Manager/DBA
Lexington-Fayette Urban County Government 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Jeff Jenness 
Date Dec 16, 2003 
Message I agree completely. I have no complaints about ArcView 8, and ArcView 3 is not without its bugs, but I still feel ArcView 3 is terrific software and I enjoy working with it much more than I do AV8. Avenue makes it extremely powerful and flexible, and capable of very complex analyses. As Bill suggests, I hope that ESRI will consider maintaining it as a competitor to the lower-cost GIS systems available. 
  Jeff Jenness
Jenness Enterprises, GIS Analysis and Application Design
http://www.jennessent.com
3020 N. Schevene Blvd.
Flagstaff, Arizona, 86004 USA

 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Adrienne Miller Miller 
Date Jan 07, 2004 
Message Dear Bill,
I think you must be a god! Just kidding, but the truth is that I feel very much at a loss when I cant figure out how to do something even in arcview 3.2. When I got a look at arcgis i was disturbed by how all the knowledge i had accumulated so far in using arcview 3.2 was now obsolete. I never had a chance to learn much arcgis since my college seems completely inept or dis-interested in offering courese or even keeping the software (for which they received a grant to purchase several licenses) on any computers in the lab. I cant afford to buy the software even at a student rate, so I'm really stuck as far as what tools I have available to me to keep my education going in this field.

I dont mean to tire you with my complaints, I need some help.
I need help in understanding how to use table data in arcview 3.2. I often run into compatibility problems when I try to create tables in excel and then get them into arcview. I am especially curious to learn how to get usgs gnis files into a table format so I can use them in arcview. Do you by any chance have some information I could use? Can you point me to the light in becoming a master table user in arcview 3.2?
Groping in the dark,
Adrienne Miller
 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Adrienne Miller Miller 
Date Jan 07, 2004 
Message I just succeeded in getting my gnis comma delimited text file into arcview. So, skip that question. I would still appreciate any tips you may have for working with tables in arcview 3.2.
Thanks,Adrienne 
   
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Subject Tables from Excel, etc. 
Author William Huber 
Date Jan 07, 2004 
Message Adrienne,

You will get some great advice in these forums by starting a thread of your own--your comments have deviated quite a bit from the original topic of this one. Just to settle your last question, though, take a look at my GIS course notes beginning with the discussion of tables at http://www.quantdec.com/SYSEN597/GTKAV/section4/chapter_15a.htm
  --Bill Huber
Quantitative Decisions (http://www.quantdec.com )
More GIS Q&A at http://gis.stackexchange.com/q/3083/664 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Derek McNamara 
Date Dec 12, 2003 
Message I agree with many of your comments and have had similar experience with ending up writing scripts in ArcView because I have found it easier to accomplish many tasks using Avenue compared to VB or VBA. Also, I have debated on what direction organizations I work(ed) for should take as far as GIS is concerned. Even though ArcGIS seems to be rather buggy I have concerns about recommending a piece of software (ArcView 3.x) that support for will probably dissappear (?).

Also, I have found some features in ArcView 8 to be superior. For instance, I perform most of my cartographic production using this software. In addition, I feel that GIS users need software that enables centralized databases, sharing of data, data standards, etc... It seems to me that ArcGIS comes closer to accomplishing these things than ArcView 3.x.

However, When I saw a presentation on ArcGIS 9 I was concerned. While there new model feature did seem useful, most of the other new functionality shown seemed to be a lot of fluff. EX. Paying maintenance fees to get improved functionality such as docable windows seems like a waste of money.

Dan's comments also bring up some interesting issues, to me anyway. What role should Universities play in training students to use GIS? Should you even be teaching students a particular GIS or focus more on theory and algorithms? I would think if one knew the algorithms behind GIS functions (overlay, cost distance, etc..) that person would be better suited to use any GIS than someone who learns a specific GIS. If Universities choose to teach a particular GIS I wonder if they would be doing the students a disservice by not picking ESRI? How many jobs out there require experience in other GIS software? I see a few for MapInfo and Intergraph and that is about all (although I would like to see this change).

Maybe the above is something for a different post but I think it is a serious issue and welcome any comments.

Anyway, thats my two cents.

Derek 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Dan Patterson 
Date Dec 12, 2003 
Message Derek
your points about the University/college teaching experience are worth noting. Students want to learn how to drive the "car" and not the "bike", however, the "bike" teaches them the rules of the road and it is simpler (sorry for the analogy). I have taught GIS using 4 different platforms to date, the principles are the same, the software changes (sometimes due to student nagging and sometimes a reality check for student employability and experience). HOWEVER, I do find it interesting that a number of our graduates have gone on to form/work in companies that deploy/develop OPEN SOURCE applications and they are doing quite comfortably. Most will admit the software may have been important when they were a "student" but when they have to make a living it shouldn't matter what the platform/software is, the ideas/methodologies are fully transportable.

On a final note, AV3.x can be learned quickly, and application development within it (using Avenue and the dialog designer) teaches fundamentals on programming (for the non-programmer) that can be ported much more rapidly than using, in your words, a bloated language such as VB and it is far less cryptic than C.

Thanks for the comments and keep them coming 
  Geomatics, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Mike Herrmann 
Date Dec 12, 2003 
Message Thought I'd share my response to ESRI's survey with the group.....

"The attractive characteristics of Arc8 are not adequate to have me abandon ArcView 3. ArcView 3 scripts and functions that I've accumulated over 6 years of using the software are useless when using Arc8. The effort to translate them into VB is prohibitive if not impossible. In general, I find working with grids and geoprocessing functions more numerous and easier to implement under ArcView 3 than Arc8.

The main area where Arc8 fills in gaps is with actual mapmaking by providing enhanced cartographic capabilities.

Overall, I find Arc 3.2 a better tool for my work and see myself continuing to use it for the foreseeable future."
 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Tift Tax GIS 
Date Dec 12, 2003 
Message AND ... E-mail the survey site to all the folks in your local GIS network or "support group".
FYI - here's my response to the survey:
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
ArcView 3.x is well-established, well-liked, well supported by users,lean and mean, plenty of scripts for the specialized tasks we perform in the trenches. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author David Fox 
Date Dec 16, 2003 
Message Looks like my thoughts are following trails similar to other users ... Here are the comments I posted:

"With all the security issues associated with Micro$oft products, we are seriously considering LINUX. However, ESRI does not support that OS. Too bad you are so tightly tied to Bill Gates.

In general, for use with the Windows OS, I think ArcGIS is going in the right direction. Too bad it didn't start there rather than with Avenue. For small companies like ours with four AV seats, conversion and training is expensive and slow. We have a five year computer replacement cycle so it will be a couple years before all our users have the hardware/OS needed for ArcGIS. Meanwhile we will remain standardized on AV3.x."

Other folks mentioned Manifold as an alternative. I've been following that product for the last couple years and maybe the time has come to take a really close look at it ... 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Tom M 
Date Dec 16, 2003 
Message Here is what I wrote...

Slow refresh and Query operation even on a 2.4ghz 1.5 gb ram machine is the main reason I do not use 8.x exclusively. Labeling is better for maps that need to be updated, but for quick maps it takes to long to set all the parameters for things like call-out text, etc. We need to make maps quickly, and we simply cannot do it with 8.x.
I use 8.x for big projects that need to be exported to Illustrator or Acrobat because it saves me a lot of time in that regard. 
  Tom Magdaleno
 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Daniel Sandhaus 
Date Dec 17, 2003 
Message We still maintain a large number of applications in ArcView 3.x for our clients and ourselves. We also find that ArcView 3.x has the capability to develop useful GIS applications with much greater ease than ArcGIS.

With the use of DLLs, ODBC, DDE, and other methods, we have been able to extend the capabilities of ArcView 3.x much as we would with a true COM-compliant development system such as ArcGIS and ArcObjects.

In some cases, ArcView 3.x actually outperforms ArcGIS, as in the case of allowing multiple layouts within a project without the use of a code work-around such as that required in ArcMap.

The ArcView 3.x development environment still requires improvements, such as:
- The ability to step into subscripts and trace variables through multiple scripts
- Fix bugs in the Dialog Designer interface
- Add font and other formatting options to Dialog Designer
- Improved code maintenance methods

In summary, I believe that ArcView 3.x is an excellent product and should be maintained indefinitely.
 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author John Wonch 
Date Dec 17, 2003 
Message From what little experience I've had with 8.x, I think it is nearly a waste. Too much fluff and not enough ease of use. I do indeed think that 3.x needs improving on, however. My company also uses MapInfo 6.5 and 7.0. ESRI needs to study MapInfo's digitizing prowess. Everything concerning digitizing is so incredibly easier in MapInfo. Mainly because it's easier to register raster images and the snap function is nearly flawless in MapInfo. I end up digitizing in MapInfo then translating the polygons into ArcView. I must say KUDOS to ESRI for data management. Tables are flawless and summarizing is a breeze. For that I can see no need for improvement. If ESRI could create a (free) extension for digitizing and polygon drawing tools such as are used in MapInfo, ArcView 3.x would truly have no rivals. Also, ArcView should have the ability to more easily translate data created in other programs (such as MapInfo which DOES have this ability). It should be easier to alter projections as well.
Bottom line: make digitizing and polygon drawing EASIER (snapping should occur "on-the-fly" as in MapInfo); Projections should be easier to alter; ArcView should accept more outside formats.
Do these things and kill the idea of VB. Too much valuable tools will be lost otherwise. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author John Wonch 
Date Dec 17, 2003 
Message I also mentioned that in many cases, such as mine, the cost of 8.x is simply too great. I work for a non-profit organization. This means we are on a relatively tight budget and costs must be justified. I can't honestly recommend that my company pay for an individual user license for EACH computer. That's ludicrous. Sure we have WindowsXP which requires individual licenses but look at the cost differences! 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Tift Tax GIS 
Date Dec 18, 2003 
Message On the subject of cost - I must admit that ESRI's re-structuring of its GIS package has helped.
We are now able to do our property tax parcel editing with ArcEditor 8.3 instead of ArcInfo, at a software cost almost half that of Info.(And ArcEditor doesn't require us to have, or hire, a DOS expert to move everything to a new computer.)
That said, I will still continue to use ArcView 3.3 for everyday mapping rather than ArcMap. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Alexandra Hajok 
Date Dec 18, 2003 
Message Thanks for drawing attention to this survey. Here's what I submitted:

Re ArcView 3.x, I would like to see improved digitising tools and more explicit error messages - I find Assertion Error messages to be particularly unhelpful. It would also be useful to have some data conversion tools. It should be expected that users receive data from other organisations in different formats. Something similar to the conversion tools in ArcToolbox would be good to include. Some of ESRI's competitors have implemented good solutions - MapInfo has a Universal Translator built into the standard GUI, and the British company Innogistic produces software which will read any of the major GIS data formats.

I've not used ArcView 8.x to a great extent, despite having had it installed on my PC for nearly 2 years. I perceive its major weaknesses to be that I will have to learn VBA in order to do any development and the inconvenience caused by its only allowing one Layout per View. As far as GIS software goes, 8.x's tools seem pretty comprehensive and the digitisation tools are second to none. However, it is so different to 3.x that perhaps it should not even be called ArcView.

ArcView 3.x would be my GIS of preference and I think it would be a sad waste if ESRI were to discontinue it. Avenue is an amazingly flexible and powerful development tool, and so much time has already been put into developing in Avenue not only by myself and my colleagues, but also by the ArcView 3.x community in general. Thanks, ESRI, for continuing to host the User Forum and ArcScripts - these have been of so much help!

My current job involves providing support and development for up to 70 ArcView 3.3 users at many different levels - some performing complex analyses and/or data entry, others simply using it as a viewer. The vast majority of my users only need basic functions, and so ArcView 8.x, at nearly twice the price, is not an option for them. Also, since the organisation only implemented ArcView about 3 years ago, the users would almost certainly be unhappy about changing systems again so soon. If ArcView 3.x were to be discontinued, I cannot see our organisation's budget stretching to 70 ArcView 8.x licenses; instead, many of our users would probably make do with the various ArcIMS sites on our intranet, or use an alternative software supplier. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Tim Hoeflich 
Date Dec 19, 2003 
Message If ESRI terminates ArcView 3.x support tommorrow, or announces a "date certain" in the distant future, there are users that will not abandon the application period. The number of these users is probably larger than ESRI came up with during their product analysis. ESRI did "too good" of a job saturating the GIS marketplace with AV 3.x and as a result will probably have to put out one more update in 2004-2005, along with setting a "date certain". Will this force folks to migrate wholesale? Probably not. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author steve whitehead 
Date Dec 22, 2003 
Message Danny,

Nice post. Glad someone came out and said something. Everything I'm saying, everyone else has pretty much said but I wanted to get my 2 cents in.

I have had ArcMap for several years now and haven't really used it too much as it is slow, even on my brand new pc. The fact that I can only have one layout per map document takes some getting used to. I usually have to make projects containing a minimum of 5 to max. 20+ layouts per project. Sure I can make 20 views or "data frames" instead but come on that's ridiculous.

The whole ArcMap interface may be more professional looking with more tools (such as a rotate feature button - wow!!!) and better symbology for cartography, but I am not convinced it's really a better product for everyone.

I can say that lots of people I know use ArcView 3.x and they include secretaries, planners, by-law enforcement officers, building inspectors, and even firefighters. They love 3.x. There's no way I am going to convert these people over to ArcMap.

You know it is funny how I get funny looks from people in organizations who only use ArcMap and have never used ArcView 3.x. They can't figure out why I'm still using it.

Steve 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Dan Patterson 
Date Dec 27, 2003 
Message Good to hear from you Steve! 
  Geomatics, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Dan Patterson 
Date Dec 27, 2003 
Message The survey has been removed from the site, make any further comments in this thread please 
  Geomatics, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Domenico Ciavarella 
Date Dec 28, 2003 
Message I agree with you but:
ArcView 3.x problems:
1) code avenue easy decript (discover since late 1995)
2) connection with DB with SQLCon or DataAccess vs Geodatabase (DB is part GIS!)
3) Use old technology DDE vs OLE,.NET ect.
4) you cannot create class
5) without event on create, modify ect feature
...

For Steve
see layout: http://support.esri.com/index.cfm?fa=knowledgebase.techarticles.articleShow&d=17222
http://arcobjectsonline.esri.com/ArcObjectsOnline/Samples/ArcMap/Map%20Production/Layout%20Manager/LayoutManager.htm 
  Domenico Ciavarella
Studio A&T s.r.l.
http://www.studioat.it
http://nicogis.blogspot.com




 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Lester Johnson 
Date Dec 30, 2003 
Message I assume that most AV3x faults are related it's UNIX heritage. Porting Arcview to Windows had to be a major challenge, as evidenced by the DOS process boxes that sometimes show up momentarily when AV3 crashes.

AV3 will lock up now and then and those lingering segmentation faults are annoying, but in my experience the greatest problems occur when it’s pushed too hard… using bloated extensions in an effort to link it to other Windows based processes.....

At the same time the huge body of user developed avenue code is undoubtedly one of AV3's greatest strengths.

What I like most about AV3 is that a person can do almost anything with it… it seems that any problem can be solved by applying the right combination of additional extensions and avenue code. As computers continue to get faster lingering issues due to slow processing become less of a concern.

I feel sure that AV3 will enjoy a a huge user base for years to come, whether or not it is supported by ESRI.

In my mind it’s prosperous to consider ESRI would give up supporting AV3 as long as the demand is there and licenses continue to be sold. Remember AV3 is marketed as an upgrade path to Arcmap…. assuming the sluggish newcomer ultimately proves to be more reliable and useful...


 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author William Huber 
Date Dec 31, 2003 
Message "Upgrade path to ArcMap" ?! Who is kidding whom here? 
  --Bill Huber
Quantitative Decisions (http://www.quantdec.com )
More GIS Q&A at http://gis.stackexchange.com/q/3083/664 
   
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Subject Re: Where to find the survey 
Author William Huber 
Date Dec 31, 2003 
Message The survey is still available at http://surveys.esri.com/surveys/index.cfm?fuseaction=displaySurvey&QS_ID=427& . This can also be accessed from the http://www.esri.com main page by following Products-->Software-->ArcView 3.x-->Take the ArcView Survey. (You will have to hunt for the 'ArcView 3.x' link. Yes, ESRI still sells this product, but no, clearly they are not promoting it.) 
  --Bill Huber
Quantitative Decisions (http://www.quantdec.com )
More GIS Q&A at http://gis.stackexchange.com/q/3083/664 
   
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Subject Re: Where to find the survey 
Author Marco Boeringa 
Date Jan 10, 2004 
Message Hello all,

I must agree with all of you that ArcView 3.x should be supported for the foreseeable future. There are just to many tools and investments involved. If ESRI for example would quit support and AV3.x would prove to be incompatible with “LongHorn”, the next release of Windows, it would really mean BIG trouble for many of our customers.
As a developer, I have been involved in many ArcView 3.x projects during the past 5 years. And although ArcView has it’s limitations, I must agree with Daniel Sandhaus that most can be overcome by using DLL, ODBC and DDE effectively, just like with ArcGIS COM development environment.
And as for the future, it may not even be with geodatabases at all (or at least, not only…), but with OpenGIS WMS and WFS services distributed through the web. With a transactional WFS service, you can even edit across the web!… (for a nice example, see the GeoServer website http://geoserver.sourceforge.net/html/index.php) and the links to MoxiMedia (www.moximedia.com)
These services can be based on any data source: file based like shapefiles, AutoCAD files or database based like ArcSDE geodatabases, OpenSource and OpenGIS MySQL (http://www.mysql.com ) / PostGIS (www.postgis.org or http://postgis.refractions.net ) , Smallworld. As long as there is an application build to serve it, you can have a uniform and non proprietary data format served available for any application reading WMS and WFS.
As for ArcView and OpenGIS, I have already seen several examples for WMS support (e.g. http://www.refractions.net ), and wouldn’t be surprised to see WFS support coming up for ArcView, although that will definitely be much more difficult to implement, but technically speaking, I think it could be done…
As for the long awaited – but never to come – ArcView 4, I think you all should have a look at one of the products developed in our company. It is called Theme Browser and is an “ArcCatalog-like” extension for ArcView 3.2 or higher. It offers advanced data browsing, searching and cataloging facilities for ArcView and bridges the gap between AV3.x and ArcGIS. In some ways it even surpasses ArcCatalog, as for example it offers FGDC keyword searches on all major metadata formats (XML, SGML, HTML, TXT, NOAA HTML, NOAA MET) and not just XML. Metadata viewing is supported on 12 data formats, including XML styled with XSL. In addition, Theme Browser offers 8 powerful batch conversions and a user friendly Query Wizard. It is a real productivity booster.
I would be highly interested to hear some reactions to our product from you all, and I am also interested to know where you would like to see such a product go. For example, we’re thinking of adding ISO and CEN metadata search capabilities, as a supplement to the FGDC search capabilities, but any comments would be welcome.
A full working 15 days demo can be downloaded from:
http://www.nieuwland.nl/geo-informatie/diensten/themebrowser/index.htm
Lastly, it will always be a long transition to any new software platform, many organizations only recently upgraded or implemented ArcGIS seriously (e.g. including ArcSDE, personally, I don’t think ArcGIS is anything worth without, considering it’s poor file based performance).
Looking from the development point of view, I think currently about 50% of our effort is invested in ArcGIS projects, the other still in ArcView. Only during the past year, we have seen serious growing interest from customers for developing ArcGIS products and extensions.
A friend of mine who actually works at the Dutch branch of ESRI told me that they recently even received an order to develop a small new AML application for some organization in the Netherlands, talking about “new developments” at ESRI! ;-)…

Well, for those of you interested in having a look at the Theme Browser, please visit:
http://www.nieuwland.nl/geo-informatie/diensten/themebrowser/index.htm

Best regards,

Marco Boeringa
Boeringa@nieuwland.nl
Nieuwland Automatisering
The Netherlands
 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Shaun Phillips 
Date Jan 12, 2004 
Message I need to be looking at this forum more often. :)

Most of my comments are similar to what other people have said but here they are anyways.

As a relatively experienced user/developer (used for 4 years, Avenue programming last 2), PLEASE keep AV 3.X alive. There is way too many scripts/extensions existing to even think about converting them to VB (unless ESRI creates a transfer program). Even then it would take a long time to simply transfer them. Also, I know several people (including myself) who have done graduate-level work using Avenue/AV3.X. If 3.X was to be disbanded, this research and its use to our fields would be vastly diminished.

The ease of use of 3.X is one of its best characteristics. I've introduced several professors in my department (anthropology) to basic use/map production in 3.X (mostly to save myself small annoying jobs and to get the professors able to do this work after I graduate, end of the year hopefully). ArcView/GIS 8.X is too intimidating for many of them, their computers cannot handle 8.X (it's a beast), and the university has a site license for 3.X, unlike individual licenses for 8.

The main improvement of 8 over 3 is its cartographic capabilities. If ESRI were to develope an extension or upgrade of 3.3 with the cartographic capability of 8, 3.X would be incredible. 
  Shaun Phillips
Michigan State University
Anthropology Grad Student  
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Serge V.P. 
Date Jan 15, 2004 
Message I agree that ArcView must live and develop. Working with a wide range of computer programs I meet with such user’s resistance (aversion) of innovation of their favorite program for the first time. May be not all of this changes are unambiguously useful?
1. It is stupid to negate all of the good innovations of the 8-th version but this program should not to turn into something huge and awkward, setting course to AutoCAD.
2. It is very strange that such useful multi-layout interface was discarded. Why?
3. It will be better to make one program that can do everything instead of desintegrating it. The lion's share of users use ArcINFO only for creating topology. Why not to include this feature in ArcView? Of course, I know the difference in the data models but nevertheless many people try to create this function themselves and the others download this scripts.

- mental peace.
- From AG_8.3 to AV_3.8!
 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Duncan Hornby 
Date Jan 19, 2004 
Message Dan,

Thanks for bring this to my attention, I have registered my request to continue support! I pointed out that it was often the customers who define what can or cannot be done. If they only have 3.x there is not much point in developing a nifty project for them in 8.3!

Duncan 
  GeoData Institute 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Jon Fisher 
Date Jan 20, 2004 
Message My biggest complaints are:
*Splitting it into three programs, each of which is a resource hog (my 1.7GHz machine with 756 MB of RAM runs ArcGIS very slowly)
*Only one view at a time (especially given the slowness problem, having to redraw every time I switch view/frame is really irritating)
*Movement from menu and keyboard driven commands to mouse driven ones. It seems like you need the mouse for almost everything, which I find slower and more straining on my wrists than the keyboard.

I really appreciate some of the features of 8.x, especially the publisher extension so that others can view GIS products for free, but overall I can't stand it. I answered the survey; hopefully enough people do so to make ESRI reconsider...

Has anyone had much luck with open source GIS applications like GRASS? It looks like they're all very much in the early development stage, but the idea that the community could define the products that work for them (rather than depending on whatever ESRI decides to produce) is terribly exciting to me... 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Dan Patterson 
Date Jan 20, 2004 
Message although they aren't free there are cheaper GIS packages (eg IDRISI and Manifold) which offer a wide variety of options and open source programming languages although not fully integrated within a GIS. I think the problem is relying on the availability/exchange of data/wide spread use...ergo, why Microsoft/ESRI dominate their respective fields. A classic example is Corel's Wordperfect and Quattro Pro (although they have their faults) are vastly superior products in their fields but have failed to dominate/retain their markets. Unless you are working in an isolated environment you have to rely on the existing available tools to some extent...what ESRI thought in MHO, is that everyone would abandon the 3.x series for the newer 8.x following the lastest-greatest syndrome. My sense on the 8.x forum is that many simple tasks aren't and many people pine for the 3.x flexibility, particularly those that are in small shops. Thanks for the comments Jon and if you know of any other users that have comments, forward on the URL to the survey...you will note that it moved from front page to a buried location within a 3 week period (or less).


PS
It may be time to start emailing/phoning to see when the survey results are going to be published :) 
  Geomatics, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Tift Tax GIS 
Date Jan 22, 2004 
Message An ESRI phone tech was as puzzled as me over why the 8.3 creators left out a most basic feature available in View 3x -- the ability to draw a line or poly and see the lengths of the line or sides as you draw.
Apparently ESRI is calling it a "bug", and has been flooded with calls about that particular missing ability.
ArcView 3x has us spoiled, I guess ...
That said, do I love Editor 8.3 for parcel maintenance and for geoprocessing our parcels with soil type layers, etc. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Craig Williams 
Date Jan 29, 2004 
Message This feature will be in 9.0. 
  Craig Williams
ESRI 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Tift Tax GIS 
Date Jan 30, 2004 
Message Craig - thanks for the heads-up. ESRI tech is telling me that several 8.3 bugs have been fixed in 9.
Could they not be patched in 8.3 as well?
One reason we will keep using 3.3 is that we, as a small county, will probably not be able to afford the cost of 9. I'm getting tired of having to keep 3.3 open while editing in 8.3 so that I can use 3.3 for some basic (for us) tasks that 8.3 can't.
Yeah, I know .... this should go in the ArcGIS forum.
8^) 
   
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Subject Re: Experience with GRASS etc. 
Author William Huber 
Date Jan 20, 2004 
Message I looked closely at GRASS a few years ago. It's a great idea with a lot of potential, but it has two huge limitations:

(1) It is entirely raster based.

(2) Some of the underlying code is truly horrible.

In general, you are always going to have (2) in any open-source situation. It's no problem if you are using the software for study or training, but it's a significant problem if you plan to rely on the software to get important jobs done. 
  --Bill Huber
Quantitative Decisions (http://www.quantdec.com )
More GIS Q&A at http://gis.stackexchange.com/q/3083/664 
   
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Subject ArcGIS 8.x 
Author William Huber 
Date Jan 21, 2004 
Message It is distressing to read what ArcGIS 8.x users are saying about their software. Visit the thread at http://forums.esri.com/Thread.asp?c=93&f=982&t=45105&mc=79#331876 . Because it's HUGE, start near the bottom with the latest comments. Le plus ça change, ... 
  --Bill Huber
Quantitative Decisions (http://www.quantdec.com )
More GIS Q&A at http://gis.stackexchange.com/q/3083/664 
   
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Subject Re: ArcGIS 8.x 
Author Dan Patterson 
Date Jan 21, 2004 
Message I can empathise...I am porting (not abandoning!!!) from 3.x to 8.x for particular courses and I have found some 'useful' things in 8.x but the overhead in doing 'simple' things was perplexing. Perhaps, as one commentor suggested 8.3 to 3.8 is the way to go 
  Geomatics, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada 
   
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Subject Re: ArcGIS 8.x 
Author Michiel Boelhouwer 
Date Jan 28, 2004 
Message Indeed the AG8 software is not really worth it's price (yet), despite the good things and improvements, especially on cartographic functions.

I do agree with many in this thread who believe it becomes time for an AV 3.8 version with some improvements. As will be clear from all your reactions, there are many reasons why one should not follow "the latest-greatest" syndrome.

I myself have made some avenue extensions (like MMS Metadata,
"http://arcscripts.esri.com/details.asp?dbid=10568" ) and I am trying to learn some VBA to be able to do the same in AG8, but I cannot get used to the extra amount of work that should be done. Even the course trainer who learned my first VBA steps in AG8, admitted that he returned to AV3 and avenue when he wanted to customize something quickly!

So, I am curious too if the survey results will be published, in what way they will be published and what the outcome/follow-up of the survey will be. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Jim Mossman 
Date Jan 22, 2004 
Message I've added my "tuppence" directly to ESRI -its long and parallels much of what's already been said here. On a related note, please check out the new thread "Whither ArcView 3 Marker Symbols?" for my comments on this area. I would really like some feedback to the question I pose there ("What do you need?".

Thanks,
Jim Mossman
Data Deja View 
   
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Subject Connection with Visaul Basic 6 
Author AHMED SASH 
Date Jan 22, 2004 
Message How can I make connection between ArcView 3.2 And Visual Basic 6? 
   
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Subject Re: Connection with Visaul Basic 6 
Author David Kimball 
Date Jan 23, 2004 
Message Ahmed,

Please start a new thread. Your question is not related to the current thread. To start a new thread, choose a topic to post from the dropdown box under the words "Post new question" on the main ArcView 3.x Users Discussion Forums page.

Before you do that, try clicking the "Search" link near the top of the forums page, and search for other similar questions that people have asked in the past. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author William Beatty 
Date Jan 29, 2004 
Message Here is what I wrote:
1. 8.x will not allow for more than 1 layout
2. It is slower thank a drunken turtle
3. In many cases we can code 3.x to do something in the time it takes to figure out how 8.x built the function in.
4. Although it was a checked option in the above question- We have over 6 years worth of custom scripts and extensions that make more than half of the tasks we perform with 3.x a matter of pressing a few buttons.
However I would like to add to any one from ESRI that:
It is extremely disrespectful of ESRI marketing people to look and tell us that we just don't understand 8.x and that we are stuck in the last decade. I understand perfectly well that 8.x is an attempt to move GIS out of a back room, but to look down on the people that use your software in Real World situations and do not have the resources or time to retrain personnel, is not the way to convince customers. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Dan Patterson 
Date Jan 29, 2004 
Message William
Well spoken! 
  Geomatics, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Tift Tax GIS 
Date Feb 03, 2004 
Message William - I was unable to recreate one of your examples here. The turtle refused repeated attempts to convince him to imbibe. Fearing protests from the animal rights community, the experiment was abandoned. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Tift Tax GIS 
Date Feb 03, 2004 
Message If you're used to pre-setting a "Working Directory" for new files you generate from View 3.x, don't even try it in 8.3. Instead, 8.3 defaults to the last-used folder, and ESRI phone techs told me there is no way to over-ride that.
I routinely create 5-15 new shapefiles a day, while adding themes or aerials from 2 different hard drives. Thanks to 8.3, I now have shapefiles all over the place. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Guyn2 GIS 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message Blah, blah, blah

I think ArcView is 100% better than 3x, I think all the old-timers need to either get out of GIS or move on to retirement. Technology changes and all software has bugs, including your beloved ArcView 3x, even this forum's text box has a bug. I hope, and stay up late praying on the demise of 3x, and hope that ESRI stops supporting this platform (hopefully with the 9x release). The funny thing is that all of these old-timers now only know as much as the kids right out of school. With that said, could that be why so many people complain about the software, is it because it is called JOB SECURITY or is it called NO MOTIVATION ON LEARNING NEW TECHNOLOGY. If everybody stayed after work a few hours, just think of the possibilities. It sure would be nice to have all of the users to this post, list their company names, so that we all know which companies look to the past instead of the future and know which companies we DON'T want to work for?

ESRI, you guys are doing an excellent job. Your software just gets better and better. With a 2.0 release coming soon (9x for those old-timers), it is incredible the functionality that you include in your product. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Dan Patterson 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message Just a point of clarification, 8.x isn't just called Arcview, it is ArcGIS (and its flavour is ArcView)

Some of us use both (3.x and 8.x) and know the differences.

Yes 9.0 will be a miracle product (that' what was said about the transition from ... to 8.1 to ...8.2 and then 8.3 ).

The main concern, is that ESRI still doesn't fix their software from previous versions. For example, if you are using the Spatial Analyst (in both versions) you will have noticed that most (if not all) the bugs in the 3.x version were not fixed when ported over to 8.x. What happened to the miracle? The interface changed... from Map Calculator to Raster Calculator (a difference of 3 letters if you hadn't noticed).

So don't be so hard on the "old guys" some of us are on our 8th or 9th different GIS package (I am not talking about upgrades within a vendor), and use 3 or 4 different vendor products regularly.

We may have some advice to offer the current vendors and the young pups that follow.

Alpha GIS Guy


PS!!!!!!!!!!!!
So that my opinion may not taint others I would suggest that you spend some time reading these threads to see where the 3.x went to and your future transition may be

ArcGIS performance
http://forums.esri.com/thread.asp?c=93&f=982&t=45105&mc=90

ArcGIS sucks!!!
http://forums.esri.com/thread.asp?c=93&f=982&t=115953&mc=74 
  Geomatics, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Guyn2 GIS 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message Oh, was I suppose to create a new thread. I thought I was responding to the ArcView, Be Heard thread. I guess I should have opened a new thread on ArcGIS, ahhhh.
There is a difference between 3x and 8x, yes, one has bugs and the... other has bugs. One has core support for a bunch more formats and one has support but through loading additional extensions. One you can right-click everywhere and one you cannot. One is killer at editing and one is not. One is interoperable and one is not. One can georeference (Out of the box) and one can georeference through a pricey extension. One can create metadata easily and the other cannot. One can have multiple layouts and multiple views and really be a pain in the butt to open if for some unknown reason, the project is moved, only to then edit the file in a text editor to ultimately, yes, that's right, if we are lucky... get the Segmentation violation.... and one has one layout and multiple views and quite frankly, if the file is moved, it will be that much easier to open. One can use geostats and one cannot. One can use ArcScan and one cannot. One can use Maplex and one cannot. One is just simpler to use and understand than the other, it is that simple. Well, it is simple if you are familiar with Windows and Microsoft software, which I don't know if windows was around when others began using GIS. One will soon fully support Python and one never officailly supported Python. In theory one would be able to use one language to customize three different products (Engine, Server, and Desktop) and one would not in conjunction with other products (Workstaion, IMS, MO).

I wouldn't be hard on the old school if they did not complain so much. It's these old timers that are slowing progress. I think the old timers serve a purpose, they are excellent GIS Managers and History Teachers. Let go of Workstation, let go of 3x. Embrace 8 and 9x. This could be for any of the FLAVOURS of ArcGIS. These comments are only for the Old School that complains. There are a lot of Old School GIS professionals that don't complain and know about everything and to these professionals I mean no disrespect. For those that do complain, Move on, get involved with the beta program and make better software. GIS is a community of sharing ideas and if you have problems with the software put up or shut up.

PS!!!!These threads that you speak of:
http://forums.esri.com/thread.asp?c=93&f=982&t=115953&mc=76#336798

Been there done that. ArcGIS Rocks!!!!
 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Guyn2 GIS 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message ...And so does ArcView 8x and for that matter 9x. 
   
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Subject Re: Blah, blah, ... Baa 
Author William Huber 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message Dan,

I recommend we just don't rise to the bait. The hypocrisy of this immature flamer is blatantly obvious at the line

"It sure would be nice to have all of the users to this post, list their company names,"

when one notes he/she/they/it has not the decency even to provide a real name, much less a company. His/her/their/its inflammatory remarks are not worth a further thought and certainly not a reply.

There is one point well worth considering, though, and one I have pondered since before 8.0 was in beta: yes, there will be a learning curve in adopting new software, and yes, there will be people who stay with older tools in part out of inertia or even fear (just as there are those who ignorantly gravitate, sheep-like, towards wherever the flock is currently heading ;-). This can prejudice people against taking seriously some of the points of this thread. We need to remain aware of this and be clear about communicating what advantages there still are in AV 3.x compared to AV 8.x. 
  --Bill Huber
Quantitative Decisions (http://www.quantdec.com )
More GIS Q&A at http://gis.stackexchange.com/q/3083/664 
   
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Subject Re: Blah, blah, ... Baa 
Author Tift Tax GIS 
Date Feb 06, 2004 
Message On learning curves - as an "old fart" who is teaching himself Editor 8.3 (while facing deadlines), I don't feel the curve is too steep. One of the reasons we bought into 8.3 is ease of use for some of the tasks we perform.
That said, I see the advantages of both 3.x and 8.3.
On "fixing bugs" in existing software - I am beginning to tire of hearing ESRI phone techs say "that's been fixed in 9 but there's no patch for 8.3".
On maturity - the young gentleman with the insecurity complex is a rarity on these message boards. It's folks like Bill and Dan and others who are the backbone of this support system.
If the forum turns into an AOL Teen Chat, perhaps we should consider bringing back corporal punishment.
Dan - I can't find "flavour" in my dictionary ...
8^) 
   
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Subject Re: Blah, blah, ... Baa 
Author Matt Frost 
Date Feb 06, 2004 
Message While it would kill me to return to 3.x for production work, the fact is that VBA/COM is an unacceptable scripting environment for the power user as opposed to the developer.

When I needed to hack together a quick script in Avenue, I could do it cleanly and quickly. Now, in order to script the same functionality in ArcMap I have to traverse an endless object inheritance tree, pass each object through a dozen polymorphic states, and include the helper code that I wrote a year ago. See the example below, in which I suggest how the Arc VBA script for brushing one's teeth might look.

While the new geoprocessing tools in version 9 might help certain tasks (at least by the time 9.4 is released...), there is no indication that ArcGIS 9 will have a more coherent scripting environment. 
 
Sub BrushTeeth()
Dim pHome as ILocation
Dim pHomeRC as IRoomContainer
Dim pBathroom as IRoom
Dim pToothbrushGO as IGraspableObject
Dim pToothbrushSM as IGraspableObjectThatFitsInYourMouth
Dim pToothpasteTube as IGraspableObject
Dim pToothpasteTube as ISqueezyStuffContainer
//etc...

Set pHome = Me.CurrentLocation
set pHomeRC = pHome
set pBathroom = pHomeRc.Rooms("Bathroom")
//WHOOPS! Can't do that! Have to traverse the rooms and check if the name is "Bathroom". Now where did I put that code snippet?

//etc...
 
   
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Subject Re: Blah, blah, ... Baa 
Author Charles Fried 
Date Feb 18, 2004 
Message This is a great thread!

My 2-cents: ESRI has a history building new products that offer some really neat new things, but leave behind lots of other neat things.

I was really disappointed when scripting was added to ArcView but it wasn't AML. I still miss AML. No, it wasn't "object oriented" or buzzword-compliant, but it was sure quick to knock something together, quicker than Avenue. But I made the switch. Now VB continues the distressing trend once again: it is totally incompatible with the previous releases, more difficult, grossly more verbose, and now not even OS independent. So.... I am using ArcGIS 8 for the functionality but I am frustrated at the lack of compatibility with previous products, and with the low-level granularity of VB (is Assembler the next step?). IMHO, there is too much of "jump on the next new thing" at the expense of supporting the last old thing.

I understand that Arc9 will have some support for AML .. too bad it won't also include Avenue.

No software is perfect, but I am a bit frustrated with Arc8 and think AV3 should stick around.

Charles Fried
BP

 
  Charles Fried
BP, Houston
Petroleum User Group Chairman
281-366-3445 
   
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Subject Re: Blah, blah, ... Baa 
Author Tom Price 
Date Mar 09, 2004 
Message Matt Frost,

That is seriously the most funny thing I have read on this forum! I love it.

But you forgot that there is no way to tell the graspableobject(toothbrushes) apart. Sure they can be enumerated but heaven help you if you have two red ones from the same manufacturer! Now one is 1 and next time one is 2. This could be important if number 2 was dropped in say the litter box and you wanted to tell them apart.

Oh wait, I was flashing back to working with the graphicscontainer. :)

-tom



 
   
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Subject Re: Blah, blah, ... Baa 
Author David Lowery 
Date Feb 22, 2006 
Message In agreement Bill,

There are obvious advantages to each 3, 8 and 9 but all have unresolved bugs. Perhaps you could say that if you think one product is perfect then you haven't used it enough to find the limitations....or you've found them and in your ignorance think nothing is amiss.

 
   
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Subject Re: Blah, blah, ... Baa 
Author David Lowery 
Date Feb 22, 2006 
Message In agreement Bill,

There are obvious advantages to each 3, 8 and 9 but all have unresolved bugs. Perhaps you could say that if you think one product is perfect then you haven't used it enough to find the limitations....or you've found them and in your ignorance think nothing is amiss.

Recent graduate and now postgrad and I simply want to produce solutions for my problems via an understandable and intutive scripting language (or even by magic if it's possible)without having to get another degree. VBA and dim pPython are not doing it for me.

Not an ArcView 3.x user (yet) but with the number of avenue solutins out there it's tempting.

David Lowery
Honours Student,
Applied Ecology Research Group
University of Canberra

 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Derek McNamara 
Date Feb 06, 2004 
Message Guyn2 GIS is completely wrong when he says the old timers only know as much as the kids right out of school. Having been relatively recently just out of school for my second degree I wish I knew a quarter of what Dan Patterson and William Huber know (based on being an avid reader of this forum and having them help me and others) and I doubt there is anyone who is been educated in the US in GIS in the last ten years that knows 1/2 of what the two above do because are education system in the US is falling apart (based on what school was like my first go around 12 years ago).

So lets listen to these "old timers" (do not even know if Bill and Dan are this) as I feel they have valuable contributions to make to society in showing us young pups what the world was like before it started falling apart. I know old timers like my parents were brought up with the notion that producing crap is not acceptable and while I do not think ArcGIS is crap compared to a lot of software out there it would probably have not been an acceptable product as little as ten years ago in the united states.

As to ESRI software keep getting better and better, from a stand point of software design, it seems to me Arc/Info (BEST), ArcView 3.x(Worse), ArcView 8.x (theWorst).

As to people staying after work an extra few hours, there are many great US heros who have had there heads bashed in to protect the US worker from the greed of the wealthy and you want to through that all away. In my mind this is equivalent to throwing away the Bill of Rights.

Sorry for the ranting but I think Guyn2 GIS's view points are extremely destructive.

Derek

Derek 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Jim Mossman 
Date Feb 07, 2004 
Message Hi All:

I have to agree with Eric on today's education system. The off-the-wall response by the person who didn't include their name certainly seems to demonstrate that the education system no longer includes anything about manners (nor, apparently, the making of a cognitive argument).

My guess is that people coming strictly from the Arc/Info Workstation world will generally find ArcGIS to be much more productive (once they get used to working in the Windows world and learn the new software).

For those that come from the ArcView 3.x world (and are not involved in a lot of feature editing) , I think they will find that they are not as productive with ArcGIS, even once they have learned it. ArcView 3.x still wins hands-down in my opinion for producing a quick and dirty, but still very good looking map. However, ArcGIS has a lot of really good features that will allow users to make even better maps.

There are a number of small enhancements that could be made to ArcGIS that would make it easier to use (e.g. not having to click down so many levels to change a point symbol). I very much hope these will be addressed soon.

However, even then, I believe that ArcView 3.x will be the platform of choice for the professional using GIS as an out-of-their-field tool (i.e. the professionals in other fields with little or no training in GIS and without the time to become a GIS expert).

Where should ArcView 3.x go? I don't think ESRI should or will put a lot of effort into this software platform; certainly not before bringing ArcGIS a lot farther along. The ultimate high would be to have ArcView 3.x become open source. However, I don't think it's fair to ask ESRI to do this. It was a revolutionary product and ESRI deserves to continue to recieve income from it for some time.

As to ArcView 3.x changes, it would be nice if ESRI could offer some code to deal with some of the Segementation Violations. I have in mind a module that would parse an APR and check all the imbeded paths and identify "not founds" and even allow deletion or correction of such errors. Perhaps this already exists somewhere in ArcScripts?.

And the above thought leads me to where I think the best potential path for improvement is with ArcView 3.x. The user community, with ESRI's continued assistance and support. ArcScripts (free) and Business Partner (fee) add-ons and enhancements have opened new worlds to ArcView 3.x.

Having said this, I do not want ArcView 3.x to evolve into competition for high-end GIS software. In my view we don't need a low-end Cadillac and a high-end Chevy that are the same in almost everything but name and appointments (user interface).

And, should an ArcGIS "Lite" be the way that ESRI chooses to go (eventually letting ArcView 3.x go into the same status as PC Arc/Info), then I pray that it has the look and feel of ArcView 3.x, not that of ArcGIS. Yes, let it be a subset of ArcGIS under the hood, but keep the intuitive look and feel of ArcView 3.x.

That's my "thrup-pence" on the subject. Not everyone's cup of tea, I'm sure.

Regards,
Jim Mossman
Data Deja View 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Alexandra Hajok 
Date Feb 09, 2004 
Message I'm one of the young pups, only out of uni four years. Of the eight different GISs I've used, I've found ArcView 3.x and ArcGIS to be the best, despite the bugs.

In my organisation we have 230 users of the corporate GIS, ArcView 3.3; there are also three ArcGIS users (including me - I work in GIS support and development). Most of the 230 only utilise a few tools in ArcView; it would certainly be overkill to provide them all with AV8. But my main point is that most of them *cannot afford* nearly twice the money for AV8, even if they were prepared to learn a completely new package - which to many of them is just one of a multitude of tools.

If we were forced get rid of 3.x in favour of AV8/9/whatever, I worry that GIS would die a death within this organisation. When ESRI discontinue updating and supporting 3.x, I only hope that they are willing to continue to host this forum.

Alex. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Matt Frost 
Date Feb 10, 2004 
Message Before ESRI pulls the plug on v3.x, somebody ought to have a look at the new ArcNews. Most of the screen snaps accompanying articles about research use appear to be from 3.x, while the tech-oriented articles feature screens from 8.x. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Peter Black 
Date Feb 10, 2004 
Message I am not an old timer, given I define that by a full knowledge of command line Arc/Info and AML or even Fortran. I was initially trained on the ArcInfo 7 platform, but ultimately found Arcview 2 then 3 much earier to use and program. I'm glad to know that the consensus of the community, and I've spoken with many of you(academcis, programmers, government, corporate, non-profit). We all have the same problems with ArcGIS and Arcview3 that have been stated eloquently here. But we also recognize some of the very cool things each package contains. For example, I do all of my programming in Avenue simply because its much easier to write, the system code is open, there's an incredible user community, and most of all, its faster. But I use ArcGIS for all of my cartography, since it clearly has better tools. I also use ArcScene for any 3d visualization or animation, and the geostatistical analyst is very nice.

That being said, I have spoken to folks @ ESRI about continuing to develop and support version 3. What they should really do is the following:
- recognize that version 3 was THE software which popularized GIS in the world and gave ESRI the major market share
- develop a version 4 line that incorporates the best of ArcGIS(cartographic tools, multiple layouts for a view, transparency symbology, ArcScene like fly tool/animation, a geostats analyst, fix the Segmentation Violation, etc.), but still runs on avenue.

Remember, they are interested in selling new software to increase their bottom line. Since they have such a huge contingent of people still using the 3 line, we represent a very lucrative pool that will in all liklihood upgrade to a version 4 if they make the necessary improvements.

Again, I've had conversations with folks at ESRI, and I hope they take my suggestions seriously. Thank you. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Paul Benson 
Date Feb 11, 2004 
Message I've been an ArcView 3.x user for about 7 years. I'm not a GIS professional, just a city planner that uses it for maps and analysis (for which it has been like a gift from heaven!). I have demo'd the 8.3 version for the last 2 months, and took the on-line course in migrating to it.

My take on 8.3 is that it is a step in the wrong direction for me. For one thing it is a substantially different product, requiring an unpleasant amount of retraining. I don't have a lot of time to relearn software, I have work to do! I want something simple, powerful, fast and user-friendly, like 3.2. It seems that 8.3 is slower in terms of computer speed, and slower in terms of how many keystrokes it takes to get the same results. Editing, while it has more tools (that I don't need), is much more difficult. Even selection and identification is annoying since it takes extra strokes to specify which theme is being selected/identified. I also don't like the layout function, it's more difficult to manipulate the area being mapped, and the fact that a project can have only 1 layout is an enormous loss (to me). And finally, (I could go on) the help function is ridiculous. Searching produces dozens of results for dozens of software packages, but it seems no direct information for even simple questions. (How do you create a donut polygon, for example?)

Keep 8.3 for the professionals (assuming even they like it), but please keep the ArcView 3.x line going for the GIS users like me. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Dan Patterson 
Date Feb 11, 2004 
Message A Gentle reminder to all to post your comments and fill out the survey if you haven't done so ...

http://surveys.esri.com/surveys/index.cfm?fuseaction=displaySurvey&QS_ID=427&

is the gateway 
  Geomatics, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author William Mattingly 
Date Feb 12, 2004 
Message Users keep comparing ArcView 3 with ArcView 8 and this is where problems start. ArcView 3 and ArcView 8 were designed for two entirely different users. ArcView 3 was designed to be a lightweight easy to use software for the non GIS professional. ArcView 8 (aka ArcMap) was designed to be a GUI for Arc/Info (in particular ArcPlot). It is a step up from ArcTools.

ArcView 8 is designed for a very technical user with high cartographic requirements and access to everything and anything ESRI can offer. Regardless of whether ESRI ever gets it to perform reliably and quickly, its overall interface is designed for an Arc/Info user. Has anyone ever noticed that when you purchase ArcView 8, there is not one book that says ArcView, they all say ArcMap.

ArcView 8 is like a bus, with a snowplow on the front, a trailer hitch on the back, and room for 40. ArcView 3 on the other hand is like a family car, small and nimble for most users to drive. Someone at ESRI got the bright idea if they stripped out 38 seats, took off the plow, and sold it for the same price as they family car, they would not need two lines of vehicles. Just tell the average Joe it’s a car.

The complaints however are, the darn thing is slow and awkward to drive, gets horrible gas mileage, and requires way to much maintenance for every day use.
 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Dan Patterson 
Date Feb 12, 2004 
Message William
You have made many valid points but I would point out that 3.x is used by many "GIS professionals" but 8.x is perhaps, as you put it...
"ArcView 8 is designed for a very technical user with high cartographic requirements...".

The migration from 3.x to 8.x didn't offer the expected new wave of analysis tools that I would have anticipated, for example, spatial statistical tools, (although a move in the right direction) are still weak/limited and the port of Spatial Analyst and 3D analyst were disappointing. In that vein, both software packages should be supported and maintained 
  Geomatics, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada 
   
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Subject Re: Comparing AV 3.x to AV 8.x 
Author William Huber 
Date Feb 12, 2004 
Message I was rather surprised to read this characterization of ArcView 8 ("designed for a very technical user with high cartographic requirements ... access to everything"). It appears quite inconsistent with ESRI's own sales pitch. See http://www.esri.com/software/arcgis/arcview/index.html for details.

The mere fact that ESRI continues to use "ArcView" as the name for a stripped-down ArcGIS version tells us clearly they want people to view the 8.x version of AV as the natural continuation of AV 3.x. Thus it is absolutely appropriate to compare the two programs.

What people should be doing, IMHO, is comparing AV 8.x not only to AV 3.x but also to MapInfo, Manifold, and a few others out there. After all, since there is no simple or direct migration path from 3.x to 8.x, since 8.x does not yet work (the summary at http://forums.esri.com/Thread.asp?c=93&f=982&t=115953&mc=107#338152 is a real blast), and since it requires one to completely relearn the interface, object model, database model, and programming language, it would not be any more difficult--and maybe less of a hassle and certainly cheaper--for most AV 3.x users to adopt a competitor's software. That is, assuming they feel under any pressure to abandon AV 3.x in the first place ! ;-) 
  --Bill Huber
Quantitative Decisions (http://www.quantdec.com )
More GIS Q&A at http://gis.stackexchange.com/q/3083/664 
   
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Subject Re: Comparing AV 3.x to AV 8.x 
Author William Mattingly 
Date Feb 13, 2004 
Message It is important to realize that there are different forces at work within ESRI compared to my car/bus analogy. There are costs in car manufacturing that differ and is why we all don’t drive stripped down busses. Software on the otherhand has next to 0 cost to make duplicates of. It costs ESRI more to maintain ArcView 3 and Arc/Info, than it would to simply support Arc/Info.

Sales pitch is just that. How many times have you ever heard from a new car sales dealer, that the used car is a better vehicle compared to the new car model? Obviously ESRI is getting the fact that there is something wrong out there otherwise why put this survey out in the first place.

When ArcView was designed, its user was defined as someone who uses GIS less than a few hours a week. This dictated the complexity, the standard features, the look and feel, etc. GIS professionals in my terms are individuals who use GIS daily to perform their tasks. They typically use almost every feature and the software never has enough features.

I dare say that numerous GIS professionals gave up their beloved ArcPlot and turned to ArcView because of the ease of use and speed in which they could get their work accomplished. ArcMap/Arcview 8 is that technical product with a GUI that the GIS professional community is wanting. It generates meta-data, you can spend about an hour setting up every aspect of a symbol, setting up geocoding is so-complex their jobs as GIS professionals are safe, extensive hours of training are required to know where and when to right click. ArcView 8 is the perfect platform for these individuals. They can add all of the complexity they want to their product and not affect the masses using ArcView 3. Just change the name back to ArcMap and clear up this mess.

ArcView 3 or 4 will survive for a number of reasons. As stated here, it is a different product targeted to a different user base. That user base is the largest GIS user base ESRI has. The ArcView user base wants simplistic, easy to use access to GIS. The symbol editor for ArcView 3 is just right. Pick the symbol you want. You cant set 300 different properties for it without programming.

They are two separate products; choose the one that best suits your needs. I sincerely believe ESRI will release a newer release of ArcView 3 that has features users want. Group Themes in the legend like ArcMap would be nice, access to geodatabases, annotation support. ESRI needs to sell upgrades of ArcView and those Arcview 8 upgrades are not selling well.
 
   
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Subject Re: Comparing AV 3.x to AV 8.x 
Author Tift Tax GIS 
Date Feb 13, 2004 
Message Bill's link to the ArcGIS forum's "ArcGIS sucks" thread yielded this gem -
"I've certainly noticed a lot more bad language in the office since we changed over from 3.2 to 8.3 ...."
Cheers Bill. 
   
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Subject Re: Comparing AV 3.x to AV 8.x 
Author André Weber 
Date Mar 31, 2004 
Message Hallo,
i'am a long time ArcView GIS X User since
Version 1.0 till 3.3 ...

-> currently I can't advice none of our
customers to switch to ArcGIS - because

* its a very complex system - to port our
project with nearly 1000 avenue scripts
we can't sell one of our products over
month until we converted it to VBA - that
will destroy our company!
(ESRI's marketing that switch over is easy -
may be true for projects only containing
maps and no customized scripts! - this
slogans sound for me a like a bad joke..)

* a lot functions in ArcGIS is quite slow -
having a simple TrueType Legend on a
pointtheme slows view drawing down to
seconds!
in ArcVIEW GIS this effect isn't there...

* imagecatalogs are a slow stuff - why do
I need a TFW or something like this for
each image - why do I create a image catalog
with XMIN, XMAX, YMIN, YMAX? - sucks!

* a blank ArcView 8 needs more free memory
than a ArcView 3 Projects with 50 Themes!
(many of our customers can't buy new hardware
to work with ArcView 8)
- our ArcView 3 Project - run on a 450 PIII
with 128MB of Memory fast enough to work - but
a simple ArcGIS project - goes on such a system
like a snail

* a lot of bugs or not well working interfaces
- makes it nearly impossible to adapt it for
more complex projects
-> but adoption is urgently required - because
many people can't work with a blank ArcMAP
(or is ESRI thinking this?) - they need
functions that make ArcMAP usable like
a Office product...

* the price - ArcGIS isn't so cheap like it sounds
because often you need a more uptodate hardware
to work with it - but ArcVIEW GIS works also
on older Hardware - and so it is cheaper...


so I can only say to ESRI hold ArcView GIS alive!
bring it to Version 4 - fix some bugs it - and
give us a small very fast flexible GIS

Bugs which sould be fixed in ArcView 3.X
* SQLCon -> allow more than one connection
over the same ODBC alias!
* Dialog Designer - on Resize eventscript for
the Dialog
* fix some Segmentation Violations - or give
us a more useful error message?
* DBAccess -> Aliases for Columns,
DBTable Column Width in Pixels! and
not depended on the length of the field
content!
* ODBCconnection - and Transactions with
SQL-Server! - procedues Crash on Project
Quit!
* thats all for the moment but I think there
are a lot more small bugs which should be
fixed
(but I think these are much less than the
bugs and problems of ArcGIS!)

At the end I wan't to say - ArcGIS isn't a real
bad product - but I think it was let out to
early to the market - in some years if every
computer runs 64bit and more than 4 GHZ and
has more than 1 GB of memroy it may perform
good - but on the current available computers
its a real problem. The Idea behind is great
there are a lot of intresting points what all
I can do with ArcGIS - custom legend symbols
- but the price for all this nice to haves
is very high -

with best regards
from germany 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Dawn Baldridge 
Date Apr 22, 2004 
Message ESRI-----turning into another Microsoft. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Neil Webber 
Date Nov 08, 2005 
Message Hello
Bringing this back to the top will probably produce a groan all round, but it's 18 months (ish) since the last comments and I wondered what people's thoughts were now that we're that far down the road.

I have a an interest of course as I'm a happy 3.x user who may be forced to move to ArcGIS (Arcview 9?, ArcMap? - never quite sure what it's called).

The work I do involves a lot of digitising and geoprocessing and a lot of coding. I like Avenue as a quick and simple way of achieving stuff and I think the opposite of VB. I print very few maps and have little interest in the graphical capabilities of ArcGis. I'm worried about the amount of re-learning involved in switching over and whether I'll still be able to write and execute scripts as easily as I do now.

I haven't had a decent look at ArcGis yet but I get the impression from colleagues (and this thread) that it shouldn't really be considered a natural progression from Arcview 3.x but as a different type of product entirely.

What are users thoughts on all this nowadays?
regards
Neil 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Dan Patterson 
Date Nov 08, 2005 
Message programming for stuff that does analysis and doesn't interact with the data frame in Arcmap is readily accomplished using ModelBuilder and/or Python. The transition from Avenue to python is a reasonably smooth one, however, the available scripts are still very small but there are some good example that will get you going. I still use AV3.3 since there are some things that you can do more readily than in 9.x...keep both and use whatever tool fits the job. 
  Geomatics, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Charles Fried 
Date Nov 08, 2005 
Message I'd be interested in hearing about experiences with Geoprocessing and Python scripting. I've played with it a bit, but have never gotten it to do any "real" work. It stills feels a bit immature. Perhaps others have had other experiences. 
  Charles Fried
BP, Houston
Petroleum User Group Chairman
281-366-3445 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Dan Patterson 
Date Nov 08, 2005 
Message I am having a great time with it, your experience will depend upon what you regularly do. I have posted 2 python scripts on arcscripts which are attached you are used by tools for arctoolbox. One thing I liked immediately was the ability to drag a tool or a series of tools onto ModelBuilder to develop a workflow. Then you can export to a python (or other languages) script to get the syntax and modify it for batch processing. You no longer have to work with the dialog designer to develop a dialog since it is created for you...it is very easy to develop an extensive help system explaining the tool use (can save to html) and it is easy to distribute. The language syntax doesn't need all that dim this, dim that, set this set that stuff the vb does and converting many avenue scripts I have created is not too onerous. So have a look at one of my scripts and have a read on the geoprocessing documentation (which is much better than anything ESRI distributed for Avenue and/or the Dialog Designer). Also, www.python.org provides extensive links to code libraries which you can basically use without modification (eg statistics modules exist, zip modules etc etc). There are also very good books published by O'Reilly on python, all of which are a good read. 
  Geomatics, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Tift Tax GIS 
Date Nov 08, 2005 
Message Though I'm not at Dan's level of expertise, for our parcel/landclasses maintenance and analysis, I still use 3.3 alongside 9.1.
9.1 is a different animal in many ways (and not entirely backwards-compatible with 8.3 when editing), though the concepts are mostly the same.
Some basic (for us) 3.3 tools have been left out of 9.1, and 3.3 is still faster for many tasks. Eg - quick-and-dirty planimetering ... in 9.1, I have not found any way (or extension) to draw a graphic polygon and have the software compute acreage. Also, creating measured lines requires turning on editing mode, rather than using graphics.
But being able to edit with topology makes 9.1 worth it - using ArcEditor instead of needing ArcInfo.
Geoprocessing in 9.1 (at the Editor level), though more powerful, is not as easy to access for some tasks.
As for scripting, I rely on you guys who know what you're doing. My thanks to all who contribute (and the customary box of donuts to Dan). 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Paul Benson 
Date Nov 09, 2005 
Message Interesting that this thread has come back to life. I recently started a new job with a new computer and had both 8.3 and 3.2a available to install. I chose 3.2a. The difference, it seems to me, is that 8.x and 9.x are developed for the GIS professional. 3.x is a better tool for the GIS user (like me - a city planner). I lament the apparent direction ESRI has taken away from making a powerful, but simpler GIS package for the non-GIS professional. 
   
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Subject Re: !!! Be heard: the future of Arcview !!! 
Author Robert Rumney 
Date Nov 12, 2005 
Message I'm not sure about 9.1. but in 9.0 if you double click the graphic polygon, it brings up a dialog box showing area. One of the choices is acreage. Of course, the dataframe must be in a projection other than decimal degrees.