Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?

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Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?	dana n	Apr 15, 2003
Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE...	Lance Shipman	Apr 15, 2003
Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE...	dana n	Apr 16, 2003
Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE...	Lance Shipman	Apr 16, 2003
Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE...	dana n	May 31, 2003
Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE...	Lance Shipman	Jun 02, 2003
Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE...	Rueben Schulz	Jun 24, 2003
Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE...	Dustin Sampson	Jul 03, 2003
Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE...	rob dunfey	Jul 03, 2003
Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE...	rob dunfey	Jul 22, 2003
Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE...	Junior Osei-Agyemang	Jul 29, 2003
Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE...	Neil Clemmons	Jul 29, 2003
Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE...	Ryan Miller	Aug 04, 2003
Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE...	spatial guru	Aug 08, 2003
Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE...	Craig Williams	Aug 08, 2003
Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE...	Gregory Bradley	Mar 10, 2004
Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE...	Ernst Bostelaar	Nov 05, 2004

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Subject	Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?
Author	dana n
Date	Apr 15, 2003
Message	Anyone know if ArcSDE can work, and work well, with open source databases like PostGres or MySQL? MySQL may be a toy (fast but missing some critical operations), but I've heard PostGres has a rich relational feature set (and Oracle licensing is too expensive for many organizations). Also, can anyone recommend any good books on creating geodatabases? Thanks. - Dana
	Dana N.

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Subject	Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?
Author	Lance Shipman
Date	Apr 15, 2003
Message	ArcSDE does not work with MySQL or PostGres.
	Lance Shipman ESRI Product Development Geodatabase Product Engineer - File Geodatabase

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Subject	Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?
Author	dana n
Date	Apr 16, 2003
Message	Thanks for your response. That's unfortunate. Many organizations, I suspect, can't afford Oracle RDBMS licenses and are stuck with toy databases such as Microsoft Access. Am I the only one out there who wants to use a real relational database for a geodatabase yet can't afford Oracle, DB2, or SQL Server? By the way, paid support contracts are available for both MySQL and PostGres: http://www.postgresql.org/news.php?NewsID=130 http://www.mysql.com/support/ http://www.mysql.com http://www.postgresql.org Yahoo and Nasa both use mySQL pretty intensively so I think that's a good vote of confidence. Also, anyone else interested in doing GIS on RedHat Linux as a platform? I was surprised and a bit disappointed to learn ArcDesktop existed only for Windows. Will ESRI ever support Linux or is it committed to Microsoft till death do them part? (Anyone remember Wang computers?) Maybe Windows is the best platform for GIS, though I wonder what the truth is on that versus legacy commitments. Unix, from what I understand, has always been a large part of scientific work at universities. I was really surprised to see Unix left out of the GIS world. Anyone think that will change as Geography becomes more focused on technology-intensive? Oracle, perhaps strangely perhaps not, is betting heavily on Redhat Linux. Best Regards, Dana
	Dana N.

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Subject	Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?
Author	Lance Shipman
Date	Apr 16, 2003
Message	I can't comment on the relative merits of MySQL and PostGres as I'm not familiar with them. Support for a given RDBMS is based on popularity (in the user community), functionality (does the RDBMS supply the functions and API required to support the geodatabase), and staff resources. I'm not part of the software planning process or the SDE team so I am not aware of any plans to support or not support any RDBMS. We do support Linux (RedHat) with ArcSDE. See:http://www.esri.com/news/arcnews/winter0203articles/esri-gis-solutions.html for more on Linux support. And for some idea of where things are going: http://www.esri.com/news/arcnews/winter0203articles/geoprocessing.html
	Lance Shipman ESRI Product Development Geodatabase Product Engineer - File Geodatabase

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Subject	Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?
Author	dana n
Date	May 31, 2003
Message	Thanks Lance. I guess I'll have to look for a GIS shop that already possesses ArcSDE and an Oracle or SQL Server license to learn how to use a real relational database in a GIS. My local Geography Dept doesn't seem to have the funds to purchase either an Oracle or a SQL Server license, so I'll be sure to look for ArcSDE and one of those DBs in an internship. Do you know if there's any sort of student licensing options for ArcSDE? Is there any way I can order a single-user copy cheaply for educational use? If not why not? Personally, I think it would be a good thing for ESRI to get more people (students) to learn ArcSDE for all the obvious reasons. Thanks very much. - Dana
	Dana N.

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Subject	Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?
Author	Lance Shipman
Date	Jun 02, 2003
Message	We have various agreements with University's Check with ESRI marketing as I am not aware of the details.
	Lance Shipman ESRI Product Development Geodatabase Product Engineer - File Geodatabase

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Subject	Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?
Author	Rueben Schulz
Date	Jun 24, 2003
Message	To Dana, You may want to look into PostGIS at http://postgis.refractions.net/ It is a spatial database built on top of postgresql. It is not finished, but can be used for a lot of spatial analysis and will have relational operators soon. Some efforts have been made to connect to it from ArcGIS (search their email list), but I do not know how far along they are. Rueben

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Subject	Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?
Author	Dustin Sampson
Date	Jul 03, 2003
Message	If your interested in using Linux you should look more into GRASS. Then you can use postgresql. http://grass.baylor.edu/
	Dustin

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Subject	Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?
Author	rob dunfey
Date	Jul 03, 2003
Message	An alternative suggestion/opinion: UNIX used to be a real key player in the GIS world, being the choice OS of both ArcINFO and GRASS. Some say ESRI tried to force its customers to a MS OS only 2/3 years back; and ESRI's zealous shift to a MS environment has left many customers with several thousand pounds worth of Avenue scripts redundant. The R&D directed towards ArcGIS has been at the expense of the GIS capabilities of the ESRI product, which offers very little extra functionality than ArcView 3.x, some might argue less functionality! So the cynic might suggest ESRI are attempting to protect themselves with their recent alignment to the MS grand vision. It will be very interesting to see the outcome of such an approach should Oracle decide to develop Oracle Spatial?!
	Rob Dunfey The GIS Consultancy http://gisconsultancy.com

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Subject	Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?
Author	rob dunfey
Date	Jul 22, 2003
Message	Dana, You might wish to keep an eye on this work here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/pgarc/ Kind Regards,
	Rob Dunfey The GIS Consultancy http://gisconsultancy.com

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Subject	Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?
Author	Junior Osei-Agyemang
Date	Jul 29, 2003
Message	I think Open Source databases will be a good idea and also will very much reduce costs. I think Interbase/ Firebird is also a good choice. Implementing GIS already is expensive with ESRI products. Running on an open-source database will be very welcome. I do not think it is a question of popularity. We were using ArcView 3.x with Dbase not because it was popular. ESRI always leaves us with no or little choice.

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Subject	Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?
Author	Neil Clemmons
Date	Jul 29, 2003
Message	I think you are misunderstanding what Lance meant by his statement. Supporting a particular database for geodatabase functionality requires a good bit of code written specifically for that database. This means ESRI must devote a good amount of time and resources to not only write this code, but maintain it and offer technical support for any issues that are sure to arise. This is quite an investment in terms of time and money. Therefore, the decision to support a particular database is driven largely by how many people actually use it (or how "popular" it is). If only a small number of potential customers use a database, it will more than likely not be supported. I know that doesn't make the users of that database happy, but that's the simple truth of it.
	Neil Clemmons Senior GIS Developer Geographic Information Services, Inc. Birmingham, AL http://www.gis-services.com Check out our blog: http://blog.gis-services.com/

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Subject	Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?
Author	Ryan Miller
Date	Aug 04, 2003
Message	About 3 years ago (when 8.0 was rolling out) an ESRI rep told me that it would cost around a million dollars to support the desktop capabilities of ArcGIS for an OS like Linux and that the few number of users of Linux made this cost prohibitive. Maybe so, but I believe there is a direct correlation between the number of users of an OS and the software that is supported by it. Something just doesn't smell right to me when there are OS and databases out there that are superior to M$ products and are free and still ESRI doesn't invest in supporting them. As a consultant and developer who does an enormous amount of work for local and state agencies, who it seems are always strapped for cash, I know first hand how much money they have to spend to satisfy ESRI requirements, talk about cost prohibitive. If I could offer them the same capabilities in a more stable environment at a fraction of the cost, they would be tickled pink. There must be thousands of agencies that are dying to get into GIS, but just can't afford the necessary hardware and software. ESRI is doing itself a real disservice as far as I can tell by not expanding its support. Just my 2 cents worth.

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Subject	Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?
Author	spatial guru
Date	Aug 08, 2003
Message	>Supporting a particular database for geodatabase >functionality requires a good bit of code written >specifically for that database. This means ESRI >must devote a good amount of time and resources to >not only write this code, but maintain it and >offer technical support for any issues that are >sure to arise. Wouldn't it be really nice if ESRI worked with other vendors (read: geodb formats) and in a consensus process supported by industry, government and academic members to enable geoprocessing technologies to interoperate, or "plug and play". Oh wait - it appears I've cut/pasted from the Open GIS Consortium (OGC)'s mission statement, of whom ESRI is a key member. The OGC has produced a lot of specifications that define interoperability. For example, the Simple Features for SQL which allows generic access to geospatial data and some processing regardless of the database. This document has been out since 1999 - how far has it been adopted by ESRI, one of the authors? The main comment I have to make is that it appears that open source options like PostGIS have adopted the OGC specifications better than some of the major OGC member$ because they see the need. Does ESRI see the need to support and integrate OGC specifications into their products? I hope so. SG

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Subject	Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?
Author	Craig Williams
Date	Aug 08, 2003
Message	Please see the information available at: http://www.esri.com/software/opengis/
	Craig Williams ESRI

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Subject	Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?
Author	Gregory Bradley
Date	Mar 10, 2004
Message	I have found the entire process of trying to get ArcIMS/SDE running under Linux to be a total pain. The documentation is poor from the point of view of a novice, and is often simply wrong. The lack of a port of an ESRI daemon for Linux (a fact not mentioned anywhere in the documentation) means that if I wish to run SDE on a Linux box, I have to purchase a separate server and operating system simply to serve the license. Having discovered this yesterday, I now have to completely rethink the way I am going to implement the map server on the network, probably to the point of scrapping everything and rebuilding the server in another OS. In my opinion, this negates the claim that the product is suitable for Linux. I have never had this level of difficulty installing an open source product and if it were not for the fact that we are using SDE for our public internet site (which I might add is also several months behind schedule) I expect I would have cut my losses by now and moved to and open source WMS solution.

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Subject	Re: Using Open Source databases with ArcSDE?
Author	Ernst Bostelaar
Date	Nov 05, 2004
Message	Hi Gregory, Indeed, it is not possible to run the ESRI License Manager on Linux. ArcSDE and ArcIMS need to be properly licensed, but on Linux they DO NOT require a FLEXlm License Manager. With version 9.0 both these products require an authorization file nowadays. And, even with ArcSDE 8.x or ArcIMS 4.x running on Linux there still is no need to purchase another (Non-Linux) server as License Manager. Regards, Ernst Bostelaar System Engineer ESRI Nederland