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Is It better to convert GPS data from NAD83...   Joel Cusick Apr 01, 2002
Re: Is It better to convert GPS data from N...   Melita Kennedy Apr 01, 2002
Re: Is It better to convert GPS WGS84 data...   Ann Mahaney Oct 24, 2002
Re: Is It better to convert GPS WGS84 data...   Melita Kennedy Oct 24, 2002
Re: Is It better to convert GPS WGS84 data...   Ann Mahaney Oct 24, 2002
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Subject Is It better to convert GPS data from NAD83toNAD27 than WGS84toNAD83? 
Author Joel Cusick 
Date Apr 01, 2002 
Message With increasing use of GPS coordinates in GIS's still stuck in NAD27, we see more datum translators on the market and a confusing array of coding schemes. I tested CORPSCON, ArcGIS (8.1), Trimble (Pathfinder Office 2.9) and ArcView 3.2a(Projection Utility Wizard) to see how these programs handle a translation of a WGS84 coordinate to NAD27 for Alaska Users.
An attachment (see.jpg) will assist in this disscussion.

If someone can confirm my suspicisions please do:
1) To retain the greatest accuracy of a GPS position, taking a raw WGS84 coordinate from a GPS is better translated to NAD27 by "lying to" ArcINFO/ArcView and Trimble that the incoming coordinate is NAD83 and then use NADCON translation to NAD27.

Test conducted thusly:
The attached JPEG shows a CORPSCON(uses NADCON) translated X at center and its relationship to other datum translated positions using other software.

In aggreement with the original point are: **Trimble translated (Assumed 1983) to NADCON27 AND **ArcGIS doubly translated: From WGS84 to NAD83, then from NAD83 to NAD27; **ArcView (lied to by converting from NAD83 to NAD27 using NADCON).

Located 0.9meters away is the same point converted using the 7 parameter Multiple Regression within Trimble.

Located 1.5meters away and all within very good agreeement with each other are the following: **ArcView's Projection Wizard WGS84-NAD27(POSC8076) converted point; **ArcGIS (ArcToolbox Projection Wizard-(WGS84-NAD27 Geocentric Translation POSC 8076); Trimbles (Export using NAD27Alaska and the Molendensky Translation ).

SUMMARY:
If using Mapping Resource GPS equipment under close scrutiny, additional errors may be introduced to your exported NAD27 GIS if you use the following:
1)ArcView's Projection Wizard or ARCGIS Geocentric translation using 3 parameter (1.5meters seen in Alaska at one location). Therefore, stay well away from any "NAD27_To_WGS84_*" Translations.
2)It does "pay" to cheat ArcView into thinking to use NAD83-NAD27 translation. Simply add a NAD83 PRJ file to all your incoming RAW WGS84 GPS data and use NADCON. This all of course assumes the difference between WGS84 and NAD83 is neglible.
3)Excellent agreement between Trimble, Corpscon, ArcView and ArcGIS(using double translations) for converting a WGS84 coordinate to NAD27 assuming a NAD83 input. This is comforting....
 
   
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Subject Re: Is It better to convert GPS data from NAD83toNAD27 than WGS84toNAD83? 
Author Melita Kennedy 
Date Apr 01, 2002 
Message Yes, it's much better to assume the input is NAD83. That way you use
the NADCON method (and grids). These are inherently more accurate
because local shifts can be handled better than using an equation-based
method.

Another variation is to use an equation-based method to convert from
WGS84 to NAD83 then use NADCON. However, usually the WGS84 to
NAD83 transformation has zero parameters and only the spheroid is
updated.

Melita 
  Melita Kennedy
ESRI Product Specialist 
   
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Subject Re: Is It better to convert GPS WGS84 data from NAD83toNAD27 than WGS84toNAD83? 
Author Ann Mahaney 
Date Oct 24, 2002 
Message Melita,
I read this email string with great interest! We have an ArcWorkstation-based application in which we receive GPS data points from individuals in the field for rare plant and animal observations. They usually send us the coordinates on a submitted form and our biologists enter the data points into the application, which, currently, can reproject points with Datum NAD27. Of course we receive the GPS data in WGS84 and we use CORPSCON to do the Datum shift.

Our application that the data are fed into is based on USGS paper quads (NAD27) so that subscribers can overlay the GIS layer onto their paper quads.

We plan to program a button into the application that will do the Datum conversion and projection.

We are not sure what instructions to follow in order to maintain the most accurate conversion as possible. Should the process be as instructed in the ArcHelp topic "NAD to WGS":
Project "DATUM WGS84" to "DATUM NAR_C"
Projectdefine "DATUM NAD83"
Project "DATUM NAD83" to "DATUM NAD27"?

Or, should we assume that the WGS84 data submitted be NAD83 as you suggest in your email to Joel Cusick on 4/1/2002, and simply perform: Project "DATUM NAD83" to "DATUM NAD27"?

I have done a few tests on data using CORPSCON and GEOTRANS translation programs. Of course the greatest shift is between NAD83 to NAD27. These data are limited to California; but I have not done one for a distribution of data throughout California. How can I be sure that sure that we will not have "accuracy" loss assuming WGS84 is NAD83? And, based on your experience, what are your recommendations?

Thanks, Ann 
   
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Subject Re: Is It better to convert GPS WGS84 data from NAD83toNAD27 than WGS84toNAD83? 
Author Melita Kennedy 
Date Oct 24, 2002 
Message Hi Ann,

I wrote that topic in ArcDoc back when I was a bit stricter. After more testing
(and knowledge!) over the years, the difference between WGS84 and NAD83
is negligible, unless, perhaps, you're doing extremely high-end surveying
work.

I would simply set any WGS84 data to NAD83 and use the NADCON grids.

Almost all the transformations between NAD83 and WGS84 have zeroes
for the parameters. I think there is one for the Aleutians that has nonzero
values.

Melita 
  Melita Kennedy
ESRI Product Specialist 
   
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Subject Re: Is It better to convert GPS WGS84 data from NAD83toNAD27 than WGS84toNAD83? 
Author Ann Mahaney 
Date Oct 24, 2002 
Message Thanks Melita.
Ann